MakingCents Podcast

[MUSIC PLAYING] EMILY BIGHAM: Hi, and welcome to the podcast Making Cents, brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. I'm your host Emily Bigham, and each week, I'll be taking your questions to the experts to help you make sense of your money, pun intended. 

 

Hello and welcome to the podcast. Today's guest is Angela Caban. She is the Director of Military Saves. April is a very special month for Angela and her organization. It's the month of Military Saves. And Angela, first of all, I want to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining. 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Hi, Emily. Thank you so much for having me. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So I'm really excited about this topic and I love that you have extended your themes for Military Saves from four themes to five themes, and I want to get into that later. But first of all, can you tell me a little bit about your organization and what you do specifically for Military Saves? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Sure. So here as a director of Military Saves, I feel like I have my hands in everything that's going on. So more than just a month, we are a year round campaign. However, Military Saves Month is really important because it's a nationwide savings campaign that's recognized annually during the month of April and that aligns with Financial Capability Month. 

 

So why have a whole entire month dedicated to savings is really important to us because we want to continue to motivate and to encourage the entire military community to use this as an opportunity to check in with their finances. So we always use the example of yearly-- one does go for their health check, so why not do a financial health check annually? Things are constantly changing in the military community, so it's really important to put some focus on that. 

 

So a little bit about what we do during the month. We provide some resources, tools, and some really cool online events for savers to help them think more about their savings as well as their spending habits, which I know is a really big one for most of us. 

 

And something that's really unique to our program is that we use the principles of behavioral economics, and a little bit about that is it really just makes you stop and think about what you do and why you're doing it when it comes to motivating that action for your savings and your spending behaviors, which could be a little scary for most with not realizing why. 

 

So the very first step during Military Saves Month, we encourage everyone to please take the Military Saves pledge. And this really is that foundation and the start of making a promise to yourself, and that is to create and adjust a simple savings plan. 

 

And once you're opted into the program, you're able to gain access to all of those tools and the resources, but also have us as an accountability check in, which is really great because I feel like everybody needs a reminder or a prompt every now and then to help stay on track and focus on their savings goals. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Awesome. So I have two questions for you off the bat. Why April, and what is the end goal at the end of this campaign for the individual participants? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Sure. Great question. So April, for us, it's mainly because it is Financial Capability Month and that is something that is being recognized, I think, by the entire country. Specifically for the military community, it's really important to be able to have the opportunity to engage with some fantastic organizations, nonprofits, for-profits, government entities that are already hosting events and just really having this broader conversation about what is financial capability and how can we, together as a community, really support the military service member, the military spouse, the veteran. It's for everyone. 

 

So that's why we decided to transition away from Military Saves Week. Not sure if you remember that. That's a couple of years ago. Into now what we call Military Saves Month. So I think the importance of participating in the month and what I would love everybody to take away from this program and this event, this month long campaign, is that it doesn't matter where you are in your savings journey. 

 

You might have not even started or you might be ready to retire and you're set for the rest of your life, which is great. However, everybody's savings journey looks differently. We always say here that savings is a journey, not a destination. So it's never too late to start. 

 

Little amounts do add up, so we really do hope that by engaging and encouraging those to take the pledge, you could really just take a step back and see where you are, whether you feel comfortable with it or not. We're going to be able to provide the resources for you and to help you on that navigating to the next step of your savings journey. So I think there's always something, no matter where you are in that savings journey. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So you mentioned that a couple of years ago this was a savings week, right? You had one week dedicated to this campaign and then it grew to four, and now you're at five. From your perspective, obviously, this is a very important topic and it's grown so much that now you're able to fill five weeks with these themes. What have you seen over the years? Why did you decide to branch out into these five themes? And also, what are those five themes and what's the significance? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Yeah. So that's a great question because I think that having one day talking about this one theme, at least in my opinion, wasn't enough time. And what we've been able to do with these different five themes, being able to stretch them out into one entire week is not only just talk about that specific theme, but all the other underlying issues or components of that, which can be a lot. 

 

So for each week of Military Saves Month, there is that theme. So, for instance, week one was save automatically, and that's our launch, which is really kind of like our overarching theme for the month because at Military Saves, we do believe that the most effective way of saving is by saving automatically, setting and forget it. It's through automatic allotments, through either your employer, or even your financial institution. There's some wonderful opportunity for you to start saving in that way. 

 

And then we have week two, which is focused on saving for the unexpected. And in the military community, that's just a given. There's always something that's going to come up and I think especially with this past year with the pandemic, that was something that many of us were not expecting for all of us to be going through. So we touched on a lot of those different circumstances and the importance of having an emergency savings. And again, tying back in, saving automatically. 

 

One that's one of my favorites is week three. It's save to retire. And I think this conversation-- and I almost feel like it's not even enough. I feel like we need more time than a week. But this conversation is something that needs to be had within all of the components in the military, and most importantly for us this year, because we are touching on military spouses, one thing we've been hearing when we're talking to a lot of our community members is spouses are relying on their service members TSP, or their retirement savings. 

 

But it's important for us to explain that that is simply meant for the service member and it's most likely not going to be enough for two people to retire on. So we want to be having more conversations about what are some tools and resources that military spouses themselves can use and to ensure their own financial well-being later on in life. 

 

Then we have week four. Again, another personal favorite of mine. It's the save by reducing debt. And I think that this concept is not really thought of that when you're saving-- not saving, but when you're reducing that debt, you are saving money. I think a lot of people get overwhelmed with either not being able to do both at the same time, and that's OK. You can focus on paying down that debt. 

 

When you pay your debt down, you're saving yourself on interest, you're improving your credit score, which will then, again, in the future, help you by getting better rates when you're applying for certain things. So it's really important to, again, loop in some subject matter experts throughout all these different weeks to talk on these topics. 

 

And then the very last theme for week five is save as a family. And this is brand new for this year's campaign, and again, a really important topic because when we're talking about finances, I think there's a taboo where you just don't talk about it with your family. It's nobody's business. It's very personal. 

 

However, there are certain things that you should be engaging the entire family with when it comes to basic financial skills and savings. And this includes our children as well, our military children. It's Month of the Military Child as well in April, so it's going to be a really good opportunity for us to incorporate that messaging as well as providing some great tactics for those family members that might be a little bit uncomfortable talking about money. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So I can tell that this is something that's very passionate for you, and me as well. I mean, the whole reason why I work at Navy Federal is because I love giving back to the military community, and this is just one way that you can do it without necessarily being in the military. So what is your relationship to the military? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: So I am an Army National Guard spouse of 15 years. My husband recently transitioned a couple of years ago, so it's always been really interesting for my family specifically, because he's been both Army Active Duty, Army Reserve, and then Army National Guard is how he ended out his service. And we've seen a little bit of everything throughout each component. 

 

And even though we haven't moved as a family in the military, we've seen a lot of different-- I should say different circumstances that affected us both personally as well as financially. We've lived the majority of our life together in a military-- I should say a nonmilitary community with lots of support from the civilian community. 

 

However, we've had to find our own ways to navigate through a lot of those challenges. So as a military spouse, I really took it for myself, like, just jumping into a lot of resources within the military community. And part of my work here with Military Saves is to be able to support others who might have gone through similar situations that I had gone through in the past. 

 

When my husband deployed for the very first time, we were not financially ready for that. We didn't have a savings account. We didn't have emergency savings. And we didn't realize that that was going to impact our finances. My husband took a $40,000 pay cut from his civilian job in order to deploy with the Army National Guard, and that really impacted our family. 

 

So I think using a lot of those situations I personally went through in the work that I do through Military Saves is very personal and it's why I really love this campaign and the work that we're doing because it really does impact so many military families. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Like, you said, each of these weeks, you could really break it down. I mean, you could have a whole year that could be dedicated to all the individual topics. But from your perspective, what are the big saving struggles or pitfalls that you're typically seeing from the military community? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Unfortunately, there's many, these pitfalls. A lot of the times what we'll see-- and from the perspective of the younger service member enlisting in the military, this is their first job. It's more money than they've ever had in their entire life, and at this point, they're not realizing how the decisions that they're making now are going to affect them later down when they're getting ready to either transition out of the military or, if they're staying in for a career, retire out. 

 

So one of the things that we really focus on here having these conversations is putting the picture behind, well, what would it look like if you start investing now or if you started saving just a little bit of that pay each cycle, and what would that look like in five, 10, 20 years. 

 

And you'd be surprised at, when you're making that visualization, that picture of what that looks like, how it hits them a little bit harder than them just sitting there talking and getting a briefing from their financial counselor, which is also very helpful. 

 

However, if we could just take that and show them how it can affect them, to help them throughout their military career, it'll make such a big difference, especially for the military family when you now are married, whether you're young or you're a little bit older, because again, you can have money and just not know how to manage it and still be in the same situation of someone who's a really good saver, but doesn't make a whole lot of money. So we always like to mention that. 

 

So it's really unfortunate that a lot of these situations could be something that they can prevent. However, it's OK. Part of the program is to talk to them about assessing where you are and not really dwelling on what you could have done in the past. Unfortunately, we can't go back and make things better for ourselves. 

 

I've made plenty of those mistakes throughout my almost 17 years of marriage and we've learned from them. So it's about focusing on what you're doing now. So I think taking a lot of the negative and trying to put a positive spin on it is extremely helpful, and that goes back to the behavioral economics piece of our program as well. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So going back to the transition from military to civilian. You guys-- there's a lot of different stages that you probably have to work through with these various military, active duty, or civilian people come to help with you. 

 

And I'm trying to wrap my head around the question that I want to ask because I have, like, 50 on this topic. But number one, I mean, you've covered so much right now. How big is your organization? Do you have partnerships with other organizations that help you? What kind of stuff you guys do during the month to really-- what's the outreach look like or how can people find you? Like, what's that engagement with the military community and other supporting organizations? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Yeah. No, and that's a really great question because I don't think people realize that just aside from working directly with that saver community, and I use that word because that is someone who has taken the Military Saves pledge, we have an entire support network. 

 

For Military Saves Month alone this year, we have over 500 participants, and that includes partnerships with Navy Federal, nonprofits, military installations, government entities. I always like to bring it back to the old saying, it takes a village, because that applies to a lot in our lives, especially when we're talking about financial readiness. 

 

So in this space, we do rely on organizations to help spread the word about the campaign. And not just for Military Saves Month, but for 365 days of the year because that's something we should be talking about all the time, right? 

 

But, however, with Military Saves Month, it is that opportunity to closely engage with these organizations that are already doing so much for the military. We're not trying to reinvent the wheel here. We're just really trying to align our mission and what we want to do with all the great work that others are already doing, you know? 

 

Again, with Navy Federal, you guys have this podcast. You're reaching so many members within your community that perhaps have never heard of Military Saves. And it's all about just really being able to join the forces together because if I think of myself as, you know, recently married, 20 years old, my husband slapping deployment orders down on the table and me thinking, like, what does this mean for us? 

 

You know, back then, I didn't think of the financial implications, what that strain would look like for my family. I'm much older now, so I'm a little bit more experienced. So knowing back then that these programs, and organizations, and the support, even from your financial institution, are there. 

 

Back in 2019, our Military Saves Saver Survey did show that our savers go to their financial institutions for information and for that support and that guidance. So I think it's a lot about trusting that mission. So for us at Military Saves, it's very similar that we really do have to just work together as a military support community. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So the military does a really wonderful job of taking care of service members and their families. I mean, they do. There are so many benefits. I've said this a million times, but my dad was in the military for 27 years. We've lived overseas on bases. 

 

And what you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast was how you personally have never had to move overseas, but I'm sure you notice the difference between when you go on a military base and you know the community on there when you live on base. There are schools on base. 

 

I went to an elementary school in Japan on base there and it was almost like it was our own little special community, and they really do take care of you and they teach you about the different currencies. And I wonder if-- there are so many benefits. 

 

Like, do you see that when people come to you and they ask the questions, like, you really need to start with the basics because when your benefits are taken care of, when schools are taken care of, when your spouses are taken care of, all of those things are just-- you're able to kind of relax and focus on your job because those other things, mostly finances, are all kind of taken care of, like the set it and forget it benefits. 

 

Do you see that people are coming to you for the most basic savings questions and what are those? Like, I'm kind of-- I want to be in the mindset of, like, who is the person who approaches you? Like, what was that person? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Yeah, so that's a couple different things there. Obviously, as a program, we're always using-- tapping into those resources and benefits that are already there, as you had said. You know, the military does such a great job at providing these resources for the service member and their families. 

 

A lot of it is just knowing about it. You'd be surprised how many people will come to us and don't even realize that there's free financial counseling on their installation. Whether or not they want to utilize that, that's obviously a personal choice that they have to make for their family. 

 

However, it's there and those counselors are more than happy to sit down, and they actually use the Military Saves program, so part of that is incorporating that messaging of savings, but it starts for them just really understanding basic savings and spending habits. 

 

They don't even realize that just because they're making x amount of money, what is the appropriate amount to put towards savings or towards that debt for their monthly expenses. They're noticing that a lot more is going out than is coming in. 

 

There's lots of different struggles and if we can touch just on the COVID-19 piece as well, because I think we've all, as a community, have seen the stress that COVID-19 has had, not even just on the military, but the entire community, but the military being a very vulnerable population because before COVID-19, as you mentioned, there's a lot of different challenges that we face. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of times when military families are PCSing, a lot of those expenses are not covered or it takes a really long time to get reimbursed. And if they don't have that money saved, they're looking elsewhere to help them with those expenses. So we also see military spouse unemployment, underemployment. We see education, child care, and most recently, food insecurity. That's a really big issue in the military community. 

 

So I think COVID-19 has complicated these issues. But then there's this other side that we're seeing as an organization. So when you're asking me what we're hearing, we're hearing either the most basic not knowing what to do, where to start, but then we have what we call these super savers that, because of COVID-19, they've seen it as an opportunity to save more money than they have ever been able to save. 

 

Like, almost actually hoarding it into savings accounts and then asking the questions of, well, what are the right ways of saving this? We don't really get into the specifics of investing and things like that. We have a lot of really great partnerships and subject matter experts that can give them that advice. 

 

However, it's amazing to see this new community almost where they're taking the opportunity to pay off years and years of debt that they never thought they would get cleared off or just actually being able to put in a couple thousand dollars into a savings account. So that's us hearing that is amazing. 

 

And we're getting ready to launch a survey after Military Saves Month in May. It's called the Military Saves Saver Survey. And we launch this every other year and one of the things that we're going to be analyzing other than the normal savings and spending behaviors that we normally would ask are some COVID-19-specific questions on how it's impacted their savings. 

 

Were they able to save more? Did they have to deplete their savings? Just really get a little bit into what that look like for them. And I think we're going to be really impressed with the results that we see. Because again, we're just really seeing a lot of the community saying that they have more opportunities because of the stimulus checks, or we always say save the extra here at Military Saves, whether it's your tax refund, any money that you weren't expecting. If you don't have any debt or any immediate need or expenses, save it. It's an opportunity to really get that savings going. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Do you think that there are any misconceptions about financial security? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: No, I'm sure that there are. I mean, me personally, for my experience as a military spouse, I would say, yes, there are misconceptions. I think-- just a little personal story. Like, when I married my husband, for some reason, my family thought we had it all together. 

 

You know, we're military. You put that uniform on and my husband's proudly serving his country. We shouldn't be struggling. I think that's a misconception a lot of America has with the military and I always like to say, you know, we're people just like everybody else and my husband said, I made this choice to put this uniform on and serve my country, and this is my job. 

 

Just because we're military doesn't mean we're smart with money. Doesn't mean we're set for life. I think there's definitely a learning curve, especially when you're not used to the everyday active duty lifestyle. So for us as a National Guard family, we had to learn the hard way about how to prepare for those next life cycles, whether it's a deployment or whether my husband's on TDY, away for training. 

 

What about me? I had to quit my full time corporate America job to stay home and find the work from home hustle's, and side gigs, and all these things that would bring some income into the house because he was always gone and child care was too expensive. 

 

So yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of misconceptions and I hope that through the Military Saves program and my work here and my team, which I should mention, we're all military spouses and our senior program manager is not only an accredited financial counselor, but she's also a veteran. She has a lot of insight and personal perspective on what that looks like. So yeah, I hope that the messaging and the work that we do here really can resonate with that military service member no matter where they are currently. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: OK. So tell me about the fun stuff. So what are you guys doing this month that-- tell me about all of the fun things that you have going on because I know that they're there, and you and I got really serious because that's always kind of how I-- I love to dig into this stuff and you've been so wonderful talking about all the different things that you guys do and the struggles and pitfalls that you help with. But what's the fun stuff? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Yeah. So with the themes that I had mentioned earlier, we have a Facebook Live event every week that will have those subject matter experts from different organizations come on and touch on the different themes. 

 

Really fun for us is some Facebook giveaways, which is new again for us this year. So if you tune in and you just mention your favorite takeaway from that event, take the Military Saves pledge, of course, you are entered into a $50 gift card giveaway and that's a gift card to anywhere that you want. You just tell us where you want it and we'll purchase it for you. 

 

So that's really fun for us this year. We have a couple of different guests this year, which we're really excited, from different organizations, touching on different topics that, perhaps, we as an organization have never spoken on. One of them is Wounded Warrior Project, because there's a lot of unexpected expenses that come with that lifestyle, which we're really excited to be able to talk about. 

 

Another thing that we're doing too, working closely with other organizations, for instance, Navy Fed. You have an embeddable pledge form over on your website, which is really great to be able to reach members as well as those who might not really be familiar with the Military Saves the program and everything that we're really featuring. 

 

Something else that we do is our text messaging platform. And we've noticed that everybody has their phone on them, right? What is the preferred method of receiving information? It's usually your cell phone. We do have email marketing, which works fantastic, and our social media. But we've noticed that military spouses specifically really love getting those tips, and those prompts, and those reminders. And we usually send those a couple days before payday. We have some really fun polls on there. 

 

And then another really fun thing for this year is we're doing a $500 sweepstakes at the end of the month, and there's three ways to enter that. You take the Military Saves pledge, you join our Facebook group, and then you share your savings goal with us to let us know what you're saving for, why you took the Military Saves pledge, and then you're entered into this $500 giveaway which could be a great jumpstart to someone's savings. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Absolutely. So the text message platform, how do you get enrolled in it? Do you guys have a specific number that we would text or-- 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Yeah, absolutely. So Navy Fed actually has its own keyword. So if you're a Navy Fed member, you would text the keyword power up savings to 877877. And that's a really great way to not only opt into the Military Saves program, but again, it's kind of like an accountability buddy. Everybody kind of needs that person to remind them of their goals. 

 

And I should mention too that, based on the pledge that you're taking to yourself, we have different goals that you can sign up for. So one person might need to be saving up for retirement while another person wants to save up for that vacation that they probably haven't been able to go on in quite some time. 

 

So there's different goals on there. There's also general savings if you just want to learn some really simple strategies to get that started. So yeah, I think that that's definitely-- one of my preferred methods of receiving communications is that texting. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So the text message platform, just to reiterate, to join in on all the fun, you would text power up savings to 877877, just right from your phone? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Correct. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: That's awesome. And then to get involved in the Facebook Live, would you just go on Facebook, search Military Saves, like the page, and do you have a schedule of the different live events or-- 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Yeah. If you head on over to militarysaves.org, you'll see it right there on our homepage. It's our featured blog post and we have every single event for the entire month. We also are trying to feature some of the different events that our partners and organizations are featuring as well. So any time that we have that, we'll be sure to share it over on our Facebook page, which is Military Saves, or you can join our Facebook group called Military Savers. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Great. So militarysaves.org for more information and also to take the pledge. For the Facebook Live program, what are some of the top things that you guys will be discussing? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: So for Facebook Live, for instance, this next one that we're doing this week, actually, since it's week two, save for the unexpected, we're going to be talking about some of those unexpected circumstances in the military. 

 

And I had mentioned Wounded Warrior Project is going to be one of our guests and we're also going to have FEMA come on and talk about some of the emergencies that a military family member might experience. They sound like really heavy, heavy topics, but we do add some fun twists to that because, again, we know that in the military, we're always just kind of waiting for that next something to happen. 

 

So we're definitely going to be talking about the pandemic, how it's affected us, but also some different situations that, whether you're currently serving or maybe you've transitioned out, and how we could really put the emphasis of emergency savings on that because I think that always ties back to if you're prepared for that emergency, and unfortunately, a lot of the community is not. So we're going to definitely be talking about some really great strategies to help them get prepared for that. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: You mentioned that these are kind of heavy topics, but they're really important topics. And these are a lot of topics that add a lot of stress and strain and potentially unnecessary stress and strain. And so you guys are creating a community where people feel safe to talk about these kinds of problems and ask for advice, and they know that they can trust you and the organizations you partner with, so I think it's absolutely wonderful. 

 

And I love that there are a million different ways that the community can reach you guys and I assume that, on these Facebook Live events, you can also ask questions and kind of engage more with what's actually happening on the Facebook Live event, right? Is that kind of the purpose of the events? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Absolutely. And that's-- they're very laid back, conversational. It's not-- while we have these subject matter experts, they're also a part of the military community, so they're going to be sharing their personal experiences. And we encourage engagement on there. We'll be answering questions. That's also kind of part of our give away. 

 

But please engage. Let us know what your thoughts are, your experiences are. We would love to feature those stories too. So I should also mention that when you do come over to Military Saves and you share your savings journey or your saver story with us, you have an opportunity to also get $50 for your savings account and we will feature you on our website, militarysaves.org. 

 

So it's also a really good way to share with the community, right? Your experiences and what you've been through as a military family, which I think is-- like you said, it's important to have those conversations knowing that you're not alone, and we're all human and we make those money mistakes, you know? 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Right. Absolutely. And that there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. And so if you happen to miss the Facebook Live event, will you be sharing the recordings on your website? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Absolutely. Another thing too, when you are opted into Military Saves with the Military Saves pledge, you're going to receive a recap of all of the events for the entire month. I know a lot of people are busy. It's usually during the workday, so everything will also be on our YouTube channel, which is Military Saves. So feel free to check it out after the event. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Awesome. Well, this has been just a spectacular conversation and I can honestly go on forever talking to you about this because I'm passionate about military and I'm passionate about savings and all the different things that you guys are doing. I just-- I think it's wonderful. But before we wrap up here, is there anything else that you want to mention that we haven't talked about? 

 

ANGELA CABAN: No. I mean, just a really big thanks to Navy Federal. You guys have been a really great supporter of the Military Saves program, so we're just so excited for this podcast. And to get more information about Military Saves and the work, as well as any events that we have going on, just please visit militarysaves.org and feel free to check out our social channels as well. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Great. Well, I will let you get back to your probably very, very busy day, seeing as though it is the month of Military Saves. But I just want to thank you again, not only for coming on today, but also for all of the work that you do for the military. It is such a special thing that you do, honestly. 

 

I mean, you've sacrificed a lot. Your husband as well. Thank him for serving, but our military spouses also sacrifice a lot and it's great that you guys are providing support for them as well. So thank you again and good luck with the rest of the month, and I look forward to talking and seeing you again. 

 

ANGELA CABAN: Thank you, Emily. I appreciate it. 

 

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NARRATOR: Navy Federal Credit Union is federally insured by the National Credit Union Administration. This podcast is intended to provide general information and shouldn't be considered legal, tax, or financial advice. It's always a good idea to consult a tax or financial professional for specific information on how certain laws may apply to your individual financial situation. 

 

References to and participation with the military community does not constitute organizational endorsement. Navy Federal is an equal housing lender. Navy Federal Credit Union, our members are the mission. 

[THEME MUSIC] [MUSIC PLAYING] 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Hi, and welcome to the podcast, MakingCents, brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. I'm your host, Emily Bigham. And each week, I'll be taking your questions to the experts to help you make sense of your money-- pun intended. 

 

Hi, and welcome back to my conversation with Kevin Driscoll, Vice President of Advisory Services at Navy Federal Financial Group. In part one, we discussed retirement planning. And now, we'll get into investing in today's world. 

 

Job security is a big deal because you can't even think about an investment until you've had job security. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, I think you're exactly right on that. Job security during a pandemic, job security during any of the internet bubbles, or any-- the Great Recession, it's always a concern. Your employment-- you have to feel comfortable in your employment. 

 

As a business owner, that's a double-edged sword because you're also a business owner, and you're an employee of that business as well. So you may have established a retirement plan for both you and your employees. And you're going to have to make some decisions in some tough markets. Maybe you forego-- No, I-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Sorry. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: It's OK. Maybe forego a contributing-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: No, this is an emotional topic for people, so I'm really trying to-- I know that we do have a lot of military members. But for people who don't, this is probably even more important. And putting your eggs all in one basket, we were talking about this earlier, do not rely on your job as your only source of income and your only thing that you have going. Make sure that you diversify. 

 

And if you don't have money besides your job, what are some steps that members can do? And I know that is a tough question. It's very situational, and that's why I'm kind of encouraging it. Because that's when you probably do need to go seek help the most, is when you're in that sort of-- 

 

People who already have the investments, already have the house, already have the stocks, I'm not sure that they need a ton of help. They definitely need guidance, and they're taking big risks. But what about for people who-- they lost their job, and they don't have the balanced portfolio? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: One of the very first things people should start doing when they get their first job, get employed is have an emergency fund. And the bigger you can build an emergency fund, the more you're able to react to events like the pandemic. You know-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: The rainy day fund sort of thing? Or is that a little bit different? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's a little bit different. The rainy day fund may be something that is used by many people during the Christmas time, you know? It's, OK, I'm going to-- people feel like they can jump into the rainy day fund and pull money out of it. But if you name it the emergency fund, that's a little different story. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Right, it's like the happy cash fund. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's right. So just the terminology of what you're calling these accounts can make a difference in what you're going to use it for. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Are they in different places? Because I would imagine that it's probably a good idea that when you're setting aside money, you don't necessarily have to set it aside in a Roth IRA. You can have different accounts where this is my rainy day fund, or my whatever, and this is my emergency fund. 

 

Is there a difference between one that's just sitting there waiting for you and you don't get any penalties for when you actually take it out, versus I feel like an emergency fund? Is that almost like a-- You know, we have a lot of different accounts here at Navy Federal, and a lot of different things that you can put cash into. 

 

So is an emergency fund maybe something that potentially, if you take anything out of it, you get docked for it? Is the difference just in the name, or is it in the place that you keep it? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: So there's a couple of rules of thumb. And many people don't like rules of thumb. I like rules of thumb. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I like rules, makes it easy. I come from a military family, though, so I'm very-- I need rules. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Tell me what to do. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Right. So the period of time that you might need that money, the shorter that period of time, the fewer penalties you want to erode that. As an example, if I put $1,000 into a savings account at Navy Federal, if I take that out, there are no penalties. If I put $1,000 into a five-year certificate of deposit, there is a penalty for taking that $1,000 out, but you're only going to lose some of the interest that had accrued. You're not going to be below your $1,000. So as you-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: But what does that mean? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: As you prioritize your buckets-- it's really good, actually, to have penalties on long-term money. So if you invested in Tesla-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Whoa, whoa-- it's good to have penalties-- whoa, whoa, whoa. OK, so what does that mean? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: So you talked about Apple. You talked about Tesla. Some of those Google, Facebook-- if I'm invested in those for retirement, the penalty of taking money out is actually lack of growth. If I take money out of Apple today, 10 years from now, it may be worth twice what it is today. So the penalty on taking money out today is really hurting my future use of that money that I put into Apple. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So if you own stock right now and you sell it later, it doesn't really matter-- so OK, hold on. I'm trying to think about it at a really, really high level. So if you own stock today and then it grows, if you take the money out now, then when you say penalty, you mean the amount that you get taxed on it? Sorry, I'm-- 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: So from a investment perspective, you can use the word penalty and attribute it to many things. There could be literally-- you look up in the conditions and terms of the account, and it says penalty, $50 for transferring your account. That's a penalty. 

 

But you can also say that a penalty is by taking money out prematurely, because then it's not growing. So you're penalizing yourself from not keeping it in there and allowing it to grow. So if I put $5,000 away for my retirement that will double to $10,000, will double to $20,000, $40,000, $80,000, if I take that money out before it has a chance to double and double, I just penalized myself. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So you have to wait-- OK, I know I have so many questions about this. But I have kind of been trying to balance my portfolio. And so you know, I have a little money in stocks, and I have a certificate that I actually got here at Navy Federal-- I think, actually, Martin, I think it was a project you worked on. It was the 10 year, 3%-- whatever, I don't even know. 

 

See, that's the problem-- I don't even know. I just put money there. And you know, when somebody gets a marketing promotion and it seems like a really good deal, how do you know if it's a good deal? And then to your point-- I promise it does connect back to what you were talking about. 

 

But when we talk about penalties and all of those types of-- the language that we use here when we're working versus people who are reading about it, what are the keywords to look for, and where can you go to-- do you have to go to a disclosure or disclaimer? Or how-- is it going to be very obvious? And is this specific to Navy Federal, or anywhere that you get a product? That was like, 50 questions. If you want to read the fine print, where can you go? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I think today, that there's more transparency today than there's ever been. You think about your 401(k)s and the fees that are paid on 401(k), that the transparency of those fees is far greater today than it's ever been. The transparency of what are the penalties if you were to-- have to break your certificate before maturity, that's right on the credit union's website. 

 

Everything is there for the consumer today to find out if there is a penalty to that investment imposed by the financial institution. So don't hesitate to look for it if you're thinking about money for a rainy day, if you're thinking about money for an emergency, if you're thinking about taking money out to help put kids through college, or whatever it may be. You really need to go to that website of that financial institution. And nine times out of 10, it's going to be easy to find. Transparency is really important in today's market. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: All right, yeah-- that was a good answer to my 50 questions about what if you're confused, and you don't know. But I do want to go back to the question about a credit union versus a bank. Are there differences in the products that are available and the penalties? Or is the penalties specific to what type of investment regardless of where you get? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Well, the huge difference, I think, from a credit union to a bank is member first. For the credit union, it's always thinking about the member-- you know, how will this affect the member? Versus the bank, its shareholders. So we always have to improve the share price of the stock. We have to make sure that the investors of that bank are taken care of. 

 

So it's really important from a credit union's perspective, especially Navy Federal, when we talk about specials, certificate specials that you may have taken advantage of that Martin told you about-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yes, thank you, thank you to both of you. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, it's really-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I don't know what they do, but I trust you guys, so. I guess that's the point, right-- trust? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Exactly. So the credit union really is giving back to the member. They're giving back to the member in higher certificate rates and lower lending rates. So if you have to use a credit card, chances are the interest rates that you're paying on revolving balances are lower at a credit union than they are at a bank. May not be true 100% of the time, but as a guide, that's what I believe, is that you'll find member-centric products at Navy Federal Credit Union. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah, I mean-- and this has been a really great conversation for me personally. I really try to put myself in the member's shoes. And sometimes, when we're talking about all these really big-picture things, it's good for a certain audience. And then I have to remember like, wait, but I have questions. And I'm sure other people have these questions. 

 

So I really appreciate you coming online today and chatting with me. And is there anything else that you want to talk about? I'm here. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I do want to go back to a comment you made, because I think that's a misnomer, kind of what people think. Have I accumulated enough money to go talk to somebody? And I think that's-- I think you need to talk to anybody, whatever situation you're in. Having a financial advisor, having that conversation with a financial advisor just because you just got started, or you're 10 years from retirement, don't think about the amount of money you've accumulated. 

 

Because you're 100% right, that is going to-- say, you know what, I really haven't accumulated enough. I'm going to go talk to somebody. And it's going to look like I don't have a lot of money. 

 

And in your situation, it may be that you have a lot of money because you want to retire at a different level than your neighbor. You want to retire differently. You want to have priorities of travel. You want to have priorities of visiting grandkids. So don't think about the money. 

 

Don't think about, do I have enough money? If you have any amount of money that you've accumulated, it's a good time to go talk to a financial advisor. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Mm-hmm. Well, it's always a good time, right? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Absolutely, don't be intimidated by others. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: A strategy that I've used, or something that I've kind of realized is if you feel like you're wasting money, and you're like, you know, I really don't need-- But then again, you don't really have anything else to spend the money on. so you're just kind of like, eh, you don't have to think about it too hard-- that's when I feel like it's really good to have one of those set-it-and-forget-it type of accounts, or where part of your paycheck goes in. 

 

When you think about an investment, sometimes, I think people think saving, which means holding on to money. But it could also mean going and purchasing that car that you want, and that you've been waiting for. But you know what, just go ahead and do it if you have the money. And then you'll be more concerned about the money that you have left. And it will help you think more about what are you spending this money on. 

 

Does that make sense? I don't know-- 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Absolutely. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I feel like that's probably a mid-career-- 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I think-- and I talk to my kids. I have grown children, and-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: What does that mean? Am I grown? Am I a grown child? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: They're in their 30s, and are married, and have families. I talk to them about the pressures, just like you talked about. Sometimes, it's good to have pressures of a loan, pressures of how much money I have left in the account. Because you're not willy-nilly spending money because I don't have anything else to spend it on. 

 

So having pressures of I have a loan payment coming due next week-- well, I can make coffee at home today. I really don't need to go to a coffee house and spend $5 on a cup of coffee. I can make it myself. 

 

So I don't think that those pressures you talked about are bad. Because they keep us in check. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: They keep us financially sound. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I'm going to go back to another military child haunting thing. So I had that wake-up call when it came to car payments. So I was living in California, and I'd moved out to the East Coast. And my dad had helped me buy a car. 

 

And for a while, we were both paying for it, but it was like a set-it-and-forget-it type of thing. And then he did warn me. He was like, one day, this is going to be cut, and you're going to have to pay for the rest, and you need to be managing it. 

 

And I was like, OK-- completely forgot. Well, I didn't forget. But then when the time came, I hadn't planned for when I had to start making those payments. And that was a wake-up call. And that was like, all right-- 

 

And thankfully, you know, I was managing the rest of my money fine, and wasn't going nuts. But I didn't realize how much I needed to think about it until I was almost at that little brink. So it's probably better to wait for those types of wake-up calls than the big wake-up calls. 

 

And it's maybe going to practice a little bit with that, too-- like, set aside money and be like, OK, can I budget with this amount of money this week? Like, what is my threshold? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, it's funny you mention that, because as we get a little bit older, those wake-up calls we had earlier in life help us avoid wake-up calls later in life. And so those are good scars. Those are really good situations that will develop some of your later decision-making. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Kind of like the app, the Digital Investor app, right? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's right. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: That's kind of like-- it's almost like training wheels. And you can kind of play with that a little bit and see like, OK, where were the smart decisions, the not smart decisions based on how well you're doing, or-- 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, I think you're right. But I also think that as people put money into an application like Digital Investor, it's not something that you should go into-- I have $1,000, and I don't care if I lose 20%. I don't care if I lose 200 bucks. 

 

It's something that may turn into future success for you. It may create enough revenue, it may create enough of an asset to help you meet a goal. You may be saving for sending the kids to college in five years or 10 years. 

 

And if you have less money because you're just playing around with it, it's hard to tell your child, well, you can only go to school for three years. I know I told you four, but you can only go to three because I lost your money just playing around. So it's really important to take your investments very seriously, even on an app like Digital Investor. 

 

It's a learning tool. It's something that-- it is learning with training wheels on. But it's not something that-- We work too hard for our money, I guess is what I'm saying, Emily. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: [? I worked ?] too hard for my money to throw 20% of it away because ah, it was just learning. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So going back to my question about the risks, and what are the big risks, it's almost like, as long as you're paying attention and you feel like you're-- you feel comfortable with it, and you've talked to people, and you've done your own research, you understand what's important to you, you can sleep at night, you've talked to [? someone at ?] NFFG and you have a balanced portfolio, then I think as long as you have-- It's almost-- what do they call it-- almost like a planned risk, or-- is there a word for it, when you think about-- you're taking a risk, but you're almost-- Like, people who take big risks, they always say like, well, I didn't really take a big risk because I did so much-- 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Educating. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: --planning and prep for it. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, educated risk. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I guess-- yeah, that's I guess what I'm trying to say. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we talk about that with members all the time. What is an educated risk, and what is an uneducated risk, you know? And so if you want to put money, for example, into a certificate that pays 1%, and inflation is 2%, your risk is that that money is not going to keep up with inflation. It's not going to buy as much tomorrow as it did today. 

 

If you're comfortable with that risk, it's an educated risk. Go ahead, take it. If you want to put it into a balanced portfolio, and you know it may go down, it may go up, I'm comfortable with that risk. So an educated risk is really what you want to do as you move into retirement. Take educated risk versus uneducated risk, because the uneducated risk is-- that's tough. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: That'll keep you up at night, for sure. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, that's tough to bounce back from, yeah. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Well, I've definitely kept you too long. But I've really been enjoying this conversation. I've learned so much. 

 

And it's funny, thinking back to an hour and a half ago, and I was like, how are we even going to talk about a plan for retirement during a pandemic? Like, every word in there-- plan, retirement, pandemic-- all those words are scary to people. So I really appreciate the fact that you've been able to kind of help me understand and make sense of all of it. 

 

And just to make sure, is there anything else, any last words that you want to get in there or say? Where can they find you? Where can the people find you? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: People can find-- NFFG through-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Well, yeah. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: --through the credit union's website. We are available simply by typing in NFFG into the search within the credit union's website, and our pages will come up. But NFFG, like you said earlier in the conversation, is a wholly owned subsidiary to the credit union. And we-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: What does that mean? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That means that because many of the products that we offer for our members involve risk, they're not protected by NCUA. The risk that you may have less money is real if you make an investment in Apple. It may go down. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Do you have to apply for a Navy Federal membership and an NFFG membership, or one comes with the other? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: You do not. So you don't necessarily have to be a member of Navy Federal Credit Union to work with NFFG, although probably 99% of our clients that we work with are Navy Federal Credit Union members. Being a wholly owned subsidiary, we are a CUSO, a Credit Union Service Organization. So we benefit the members of the credit union. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So you operate a little bit differently, which is why you're separate from Navy Federal, and why you don't have to be a member? And I only ask that question because I know that there's a lot of questions about the business side of Navy Federal, the business solutions. And you do have to apply for Navy Federal membership, and then you have to become a business member. 

 

So just wanted to make that distinction in case that was a question. But that's great. Well, thank you Kevin so much for again, joining me in this. I know this went way longer than it was supposed to. But that's great, because there are so many interesting things to think about and questions, even though retirement's an interesting word. 

 

And a couple of things that we talked about-- so we talked about some of the products. But I think rather than getting really into the products, you'd mentioned the Roth IRA is one of the most popular. And then also Digital Investor, if you're kind of looking to play in the stock market a little bit. But what it really comes down to is managing stress, and also just making sure that you have a plan. And there's no better way to do that than to talk to someone who's an expert, and someone who knows you, which is-- 

 

This has been a really great conversation. And thank you so much. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, and-- 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Thanks for having me. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: --and thank you everyone, for tuning in. This is Emily Bigham. I'm your podcast host for MakingCents. And you can download and subscribe to MakingCents anywhere you get your podcasts. 

 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

 

ANNOUNCER: Navy Federal Credit Union is federally insured by the National Credit Union Administration. This podcast is intended to provide general information and shouldn't be considered legal, tax, or financial advice. It's always a good idea to consult a tax or financial professional for specific information on how certain laws may apply to your individual financial situation. References to and participation with the military community does not constitute organizational endorsement. Navy Federal is an Equal Housing Lender. 

 

ANNOUNCER: Navy Federal Credit Union-- our members are the mission. 

 

[MUSIC PLAYING] 

[UPBEAT MUSIC] EMILY BIGHAM: Hi, and welcome to the podcast "Making Cents," brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. I'm your host, Emily Bigham. And each week I'll be taking your questions to the experts to help you make sense of your money. Pun intended. 

 

For people who have just tuned in, I'm speaking with Kevin Driscoll. He's the Vice President of Advisory Services at Navy Federal and Navy Federal Financial Group, actually, NFFG, for short. We're talking about how to plan for retirement during a pandemic. You know, Kevin, to your point when you asked me, what is the question that you're asking? 

 

I really don't know what the questions are to ask. Because it may seem obvious. But why are Americans more worried about retirement now than previously in years past? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I don't believe that Americans are more worried today about retirement than other points. From a historical perspective, I think that the environment that we're in with the pandemic is different than it's ever been. 

 

In our lifetime we haven't experienced a pandemic. But wow, there's other things that we've experienced, right? We've experienced the Great Recession. 

 

We've experienced internet dotcom bubble. Those were times that many of us were really nervous about retirement. Just throwing another thing another thing in there makes it just something to be nervous about. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: There was a poll that came out recently that said that nearly three in five American adults are more concerned now than they were last year. I think that the obvious answer is probably the pandemic and things of that nature. But at the same time, I think that people have been forced to leave the workforce. They're not sure if they're going to be able to enter back into the workforce. 

 

Now, I know that that's changed a little bit in the past couple of weeks. What is your take on what's happening right now? And are there any changes about retirement that members can be thinking about now? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I think the biggest thing for members to think about is really that retirement period that we all will enter some point in our lives. Retirement really isn't a point in time, right? 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Right. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I mean, decide to exit from the workforce either prematurely or as planned. But whether you enter or leave the workforce prematurely, as planned, you're going to be out of that workforce for 20, 30, 40 years. So your retirement planning can't be based on a single event of a year or two years. Right? Because it's got to last for 30 or 40 years. 

 

Just like we build our wealth, we're building wealth, we didn't acquire wealth, for most of us. I'm building wealth a little bit at a time. I think that's the same way that we have to approach retirement. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah, I think that's my overall issue with the whole plan for retirement. Because the word plan and then retirement, those words don't really mix. How can you plan for retirement once you're forced to retire? 

 

It's like, at that point, is it too late? Perhaps that's why people are so stressed out about it. Is the question of oh my gosh, the panic mode's set in. And is it too late? And my question to you would be when is too late or when is too early? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: It's never too late and it's never too early. Planning is essentially giving yourself options. The way that you plan, whether it's in your personal finance, your retirement life, you plan for the worst but expect the best. 

 

You have to have a positive attitude of what's around the corner. But you also have to plan for the unexpected. You may not have anticipated the effect of the pandemic on your time frame of retirement. It might have forced you to retire early. 

 

But you're also entering into a phase of retirement that's going to last 20 or 30 years. So you have to plan for the next unexpected. You can't go into it thinking, oh, I didn't plan so I'm out of options. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: What if you have already been planning and you've set yourself up with this great retirement plan. What are indicators that maybe you should make a change in your retirement plan? Whether that is to pull back, to add more money, let it go? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Most of the answer to that can only be answered by that individual investor. The individual investor, I think, has to be able to sleep at night. That's the key to retirement, is the ability to sleep at night. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: It's the key to life. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: The key to life, exactly, Emily. 

 

[LAUGHTER] 

 

If you can't sleep in late at night because of investment decisions you've made, you need to change them. You need to change them. Our health is dependent upon many factors that we don't control. So when we're in fear of what's around the corner, from a pandemic perspective, from a financial perspective, I can't sleep, insomnia, whatever the cases may be, it's time to make a change. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: It's time to call Navy Federal. Right? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's correct. 

 

[LAUGHTER] 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: That'll be the retirement and your stress. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Right. That's where having somebody as a life coach, a financial planner or a financial advisor to bounce ideas off of, I think that's the key. This is what I'm afraid of. This is what keeps me up at night. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Right. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Then you can have that conversation. So again, back to that building wealth philosophy, I think one of the things that we should not do when we enter a life event like a pandemic, is to make rash decisions that are either an all-or-nothing decision. 

 

I think that we can make decisions that are a little at a time. So if you're nervous and you want to get out of your investments, that's fine. Get out of them the way you got into them, a little bit at a time. So if you want to get out of 25% of your more risky investments, that's perfectly appropriate. It's going to help you sleep at night. 

 

But if you get out of 100% of your investments at the wrong time, it's almost like buyer's remorse. When the market rebounds, you have the V-shaped recovery, W-shaped recovery. Whatever that may be, you're going to be kicking yourself saying shoot, I think I got out the wrong time. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I think it's probably also good to think about your strategy behind it. A plan is one thing. Then your strategy's another thing. 

 

It's like, where do you want to be at the end of this? That sounds really scary when you think about retirement. I just mean, you know, how do you want to feel about it? 

 

I think probably being agile and reviewing it every once in a while. I guess, what are some indicators that people could research or read about? Or even talk to NFFG about? Indicators that it's time to reconsider the strategy? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I think just the fact that the clock turned to 2021 is a reason to review your strategy. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: New year, new you? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah. Every time a outside influence pushes your investments greater than 10% or there's a 10% loss in your investment, waiting for those triggers may be the wrong move. So having a periodic check on yourself and your investments, and working with your financial advisor, I think that's the key, is not to wait for events. But plan ahead of time. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I want to switch gears a little bit and go into the actual different products. Because we've spoken about investments. There are retirement products and retirement accounts. So can you talk a little bit about some of the most popular products? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I think there are different products for different people. But there is one particular type of an account that benefits many, many, many, many of us. And that's the Roth IRA. The Roth IRA, to me, is the most flexible account that there is. 

 

The Roth IRA allows you to react if there's a pandemic. Just because a-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: In what way? oh, sorry. Didn't mean to cut you off. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's OK. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I'm just very curious myself too. I'm like, in what way? Tell me all the things. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Some of the IRS provisions about a Roth IRA allows you to withdraw your contributions first and leave the gains in the account. Hypothetically, somebody that invests $5,000 a year for five years into a Roth IRA, their basis on that account, or what they put in is $25,000 after five years. And let's say the account's worth $30,000. They're able to take-- if they have an emergency, they can take $10,000 out of that account and it's not a taxable event. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: What's the bottom line? The Roth IRA, what is the overall benefit? Am I getting more money in the end? Am I getting less money taxed? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's a great question. The biggest benefit to the IRA, to the Roth IRA, is flexibility and future tax-free money after age 59 and 1/2. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So meaning when you take the money out of the account after the age of 59, you get taxed less? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Zero taxes. There will be zero income taxes. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Oh, OK. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: So 0 is less than 10. 0 is less than 24. 0 is less than-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I mean, that's big. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: That's a big deal. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I need to get into this. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Right. So the disadvantage is, when you put the money into the Roth IRA, you can't deduct it from your taxes. You definitely need to put it on your income taxes and let the IRS know you did it. But it doesn't help you that year, 2020, I put $5,000 into a Roth IRA is not going to reduce your taxable income today. But when you retire you'll owe $0 on not only the contribution you put into it, but no income tax on the gains either. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: But if you're not yet 59 and you retire, you're excluded. Right? Is there anyone that's excluded from the Roth IRA? Or can anyone take advantage of the product? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: No, there are exclusions based on income levels. Once you get above a certain income level you cannot contribute to a Roth IRA. But there are provisions. 

 

There are great opportunities within the tax codes to convert traditional IRA dollars into Roth IRA dollars. And you have to be careful of that. Because there's some immediate tax consequences. 

 

So you really need to talk to a tax professional if you're going to consider that. But there are ways for many of us to get into Roth IRAs and have the flexibility and then tax-free money in retirement. It's pretty cool. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah. I had another question about it. But then I answered my own question with why don't you just go talk to someone at Navy Federal about it, about your current situation? Because I feel like that's probably what you're going to say to my next question. But after the Roth IRA, is there another most popular product or another product that you'd recommend? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Well, I think today, the best recommendation for many of our members is a balanced portfolio. If you look at the interest rate environment today, it's a very low interest rate environment. So it doesn't benefit savers very much. People that are saving money, the interest rate environment on a Certificate of Deposit is very, very low. Less than 1%, for the most part. 

 

But if you're taking out a loan or a mortgage, this is great. It's a great time to borrow money. But if you're saving it, not so much. So having a little bit of risk in there is an opportunity for you potentially to beat inflation and have your money maintain the buying power that we need it to make as we go into retirement. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: When you say balanced portfolio what do you mean exactly? Just different products? And when you say investments do you mean stocks and homes? Do you just mean retirement products? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I'm going to say yes to all that, Emily. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I'm really trying to extract it. Because it's a lot. There's a lot to learn there. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Sure. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah. So balanced portfolio is all of the things. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah. Most of us have heard the phrase don't put all your eggs in one basket. That's very true. Some of us learned a hard lesson in the real estate bubble. 

 

Because housing prices couldn't go down. So putting more money than should be allocated into the real estate market, for some, may have been a mistake. 

 

But if you have some in stock, some in bonds, some in cash, some in Certificates of Deposit, some in real estate, you're really balancing out. So this year, maybe stocks don't do well and real estate does well. Then the following year something else does well and something else doesn't do well. Having the balance of all those investments in your portfolio of assets is the key to future success. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Some of those things are a little bit pricey. So for someone who's just starting out or even doesn't have a lot of income, how are you supposed to have a balanced portfolio if you can't necessarily jump into all those places? Is there another way to have a balanced portfolio? 

 

Or what should you start with? What's safe? Because those are a lot of big-ticket items. I'm just curious as to how many people can really take advantage of all those. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah, for some of them you're right. They're difficult to get into. But in today's digital world, there's opportunities. Like at NFFG, we have a digital investor. 

 

Somebody who's new to investing, or even somebody that's experienced in investing, you can buy what we call fractional shares of any investment. So if you had $10 and you want to invest in Apple you can buy $10 worth of Apple on our digital investor product. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I'm writing that down right now. I'm getting in. 

 

[LAUGHTER] 

 

I'm just kidding. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Google, Facebook, all those technologies, it's an opportunity for many investors to get started and many investors to learn about investing. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Where do you go to find about that, the website? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Is there an app or a website? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Exactly. On our website. NFFG's website. There's a link to Digital Investor. It really helps out those that either they know what they're doing and it's a great tool for do-it-yourself investor, but it's also a great tool for that person who's a little bit apprehensive about jumping in. 

 

So you can do $10 a month. You can do $20 a month. You can buy fractional pieces and parts to companies that you're familiar with. A lot of us, that's the comfort level in investing. I know that there's a Home Depot around the corner from my house. So can I buy $10 worth of Home Depot? Absolutely. 

 

So if you have a comfort level and you believe in where the companies are headed and where you believe they're going, where they've been historically, you can invest in those for as little as $5, $10. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: So you can kind of play with it a little bit, use your intuition, and put some money in maybe your favorite products or favorite clothing or technology, and just see what happens. I find it really interesting that no matter what you read, it's almost like, think about the people that you're around. And pay attention to what's going on and where the world is heading. 

 

You can look up news articles for that. But sometimes you just never know. But at the same time, it's not too much of a concern if you're just putting in $10 at a time. 

 

If you look at Apple stock or Amazon stock or Tesla stock, it's just like, oh my gosh, this is so intimidating. And I can buy half a share and not eat for a week. That's a lot for people. That's pretty cool that you can have almost a balanced portfolio within the Digital Investor. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: What's really interesting about that, Emily, is that with the power of growth and the power of compounding, that $10 turns into $20. That turns into $40. It turns into $80. 

 

The more times you have an opportunity for your money to double, the more successful you'll be in retirement and anything else. For those investors who are just getting started, don't stop putting that $10 in. 

 

Don't stop. It's a good habit, right? So investing periodically is really going to benefit that person by continuing to put in, on a periodic basis, that $10 or $20, whatever they're trying to do. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: We have a lot of interest in this Digital Investor here in the studio, including myself, but which it's OK. We're getting questions from the audience. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Anthony's got a big smile on his face though. I can't see it behind his mask, he's also interested. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Oh yeah, I think we've hit the mark here. It's a bunch of old millennials here who are like, ooh, we can do it now. We didn't hit the Apple stock because we were like, I don't know, teenagers. But now we can get in. Anyway, back to my question, actually it's not my question, but from the audience, how would you set that up? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yes, you have to be a Navy Federal member to have a Digital Investor account. Because actually, once you open up the account, you're able to access it through Navy Federal, your digital app, your phone. Once you link in to your Navy Federal account, you can then go over to your Digital Investor account. Yes, you have to be a Navy Federal member. But-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: What happens if-- excuse me. So can you invest in stock through different apps? Say Robinhood? 

 

Or just directly through I'm not really quite sure where, and then also invest through this app? Can you have multiple accounts and multiple apps, I guess? I think people at home, in the past year I heard, are getting a little interested in these types of things. It's interesting to know that even if you do have stock somewhere you can still use this product at Navy Federal. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Having more than less is the better answer to that. As we started the conversation talking about retirement, we moved and morphed a little bit into Digital Investor. I think as we get closer to retirement, one of the detriments to creating a successful plan is having too many of those accounts that you talked about. 

 

So if you have Robinhood and you have Digital Investor and you have all the other ones, trying to put it all together to create a comprehensive plan for retirement makes it more difficult. That's where a financial advisor really comes in. Because they're able to see all that stuff. They're able to help you bring it all together, to create and modify that financial plan that'll help you into retirement. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Hmm, all right. That's very interesting. Love that one. What about for people who have been, say, on the other side of the spectrum as far as retirement planning goes? 

 

You're approaching your late 50s. You're starting to think about actual retirement. You've had your plan set up for a while. 

 

Are there any things that you should be thinking about? Any milestones to wait for? The whole taxes thing is very confusing to me. 

 

But I'll leave that one to the experts. But yeah, what are some of the things that late-- I don't even know how to say, late retirers? --people entering retirement should be thinking about? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: You mentioned taxes. That's very daunting and something that makes us all a little bit nervous. But really, the most efficient retirement is a tax-efficient retirement. 

 

Working with a tax professional as well as financial advisor, learning which account you're going to take money out of first, for how long. So that you're not going into retirement taking money out of your 401(k) that makes a taxable event for you. If that throws you into a tax bracket, you end up paying more taxes then you should have, that that's something to watch out for. 

 

Going into retirement, the thing that you mentioned as being a little nerve racking, is something that you really have to pay attention to. So back when the 401(k) was first designed, everybody jumped in. What that's caused us to have is the majority of our assets are in tax-deferred accounts. 

 

As we take money out of those accounts for retirement, it's giving money, part of that money, back to the IRS for taxes we didn't pay as we were accumulating that wealth. Well, the IRS wants the money as you go into retirement. So making sure you're taking money out of the right account at the right time, it's a little more difficult than just I need $100, I need $1,000. You got to make sure it's out of the right account, the right tax, really. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: In the grand scheme of things, if you're thinking long term about retirement, but then also paying attention to what's happening on a daily basis about the economy, with the pandemic, I'm sure that once things settle down a little bit and people are a little bit more comfortable and more certain about the way that the world is going-- lost my train of thought there. But I guess there's always going to be something, right? So how do you plan for those always-something moments and then also know that you're on a steady path to success? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I think planning for those unexpected moments should be part of every plan. You think of football. Football analogy, right? There's the RPO run with the pass option. 

 

They're thinking I'm going to run this. This play is going to be a run. But the quarterback also has the option to pass it if they see an opening for a pass. 

 

That's what you have to go into your retirement planning, is that I'm going to plan that every year is going to be positive. But you've got to have an option. What's that fallback option if there is negative influences in the market? 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: What's the riskiest thing you can do? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I'll go back to my original answer on that. That's making rash decisions. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: I'm not saying it's "don't do this." I'm just saying. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: The riskiest thing is to-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Not do anything? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Blow up your plan and say I'm going to-- 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Not have a plan? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Yeah. I'm going to jump out of all my investments. I'm going to sell my house at the peak. I'm going to jump out of my retirement investments. I'm just going to put it all in cash. Cash really isn't going to help you outpace inflation. 

 

So as things get more expensive, it's something you're going to need more cash than less, the longer you live. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Right. Let's say you don't have any of those things what is the riskiest thing you can do? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Not have a plan. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Because if you have those things, I imagine you've planned. Right? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: I don't necessarily agree with you. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: There's no bad first step, I guess is what you're saying? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Exactly. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Don't be afraid to just enter into it? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Absolutely. You know, it's starting to exercise, just start. Starting to invest? Just start. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Right, don't wait. 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Once you've made that initial investment, it's very easy to then work with a professional that says, great job. You got things started. Now, let's make some tweaks and adjustments and create what you have as a base and make it into a more formalized plan. Because what we plan as a individual pre-retiree, because we're all pre-retirees until we enter that stage, so what we plan as a pre-retiree can be tweaked and adjusted. But just get started. 

 

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah. There's a podcast that I think is really funny called "Diet Starts Tomorrow." It cracks me up every time. Because they don't even really talk about dieting. 

 

It's more just like, I don't know if it's an American way or just a way of thinking of oh, we'll start it tomorrow. It's like it, mm, could be another pandemic tomorrow. I hate to say that. I shouldn't joke about it. 

 

But you're right. And even though it is good to go to a professional and an expert to really hone out your plan, it doesn't mean that you have to wait for anything. So let's say that today I want to start planning for retirement. 

 

I don't have time to talk to anyone for another two weeks. What can I do today? And what should I do tomorrow? 

 

KEVIN DRISCOLL: Emily, it really depends upon what you're trying to accomplish. Some people really want to, before they go talk to a professional, they want to learn. They want to feel confident when they go into that first meeting. 

 

There are so many digital tools available today, to learn about retirement planning. So all of them are good. All of the online educational tools to help educate yourself about whatever you're trying to accomplish. 

 

In this case, we're talking about retirement. So jump in. Start learning. Start learning what some of the terminology is, so you feel much more confident and comfortable in those discussions when you're talking with a financial advisor. 

 

[UPBEAT MUSIC] 

 

ANNOUNCER: Navy Federal Credit Union is federally insured by the National Credit Union Administration. This podcast is intended to provide general information and shouldn't be considered legal, tax, or financial advice. It's always a good idea to consult a tax or financial professional for specific information on how certain laws may apply to your individual financial situation. 

 

References to and participation with the military community does not constitute organizational endorsement. Navy Federal is an Equal Housing Lender. Navy Federal Credit Union, our members are the mission. 

 

[UPBEAT MUSIC] 

 

[MUSIC PLAYING] EMILY BIGHAM: Hi, and welcome to the podcast Making Cents, brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. I'm your host, Emily Bigham, and each week I'll be taking your questions to the experts to help you make cents of your money. Pun intended. And just for the audience who is just now tuning in, thank you so much for joining us on Making Cents. I am speaking with John Barton. John, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

JOHN BARTON: Hi, it's my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me over.

EMILY BIGHAM: So while we're on the topic of service members transitioning out of service, tell us your story.

JOHN BARTON: Yeah, I guess mine's more of the typical story. Although it was about a decade ago and there weren't as many opportunities as there are now. But I was transitioning off reserve duty after a time on active duty. And the idea was, oh wow, this should be pretty easy. I can hang the uniform up, put the boots in the closet, and immediately start getting to work with this plethora of schools that I've been to and all this amazing training.

And my focus in the Marine Corps was weapons. I was in weapons company and I was an 0351 by trade, but then I'd gone on to develop my skills at division schools. So I had all this amazing knowledge of weapons and weapons systems, which had absolutely zero, zero credibility in the outside world, unless I wanted to be a gunsmith somewhere at some random gun store.

So I found that I was woefully unequipped to handle the work environment. Then went unemployed for a while, long enough to burn through anything I'd saved from my time on active duty. And so, yeah, it was tricky. So I dove in and went to my Rolodex to try to figure out who I knew that wore a uniform or I served with that might possibly be out in the civilian world.

And through some mutual friends and some random universe intervention, I bumped into a Sergeant Major, who I had heard about, but had never served with. And he was working in film and TV business. And he and I spoke, got into a conversation, which sparked a really long, amazing friendship. And through him, that opened doors in the film and TV world. And that's where I maneuvered over into.

But it had nothing to do with anything other than the fact I had been a really good Marine and I knew a lot about guns. So it was funny how I was able to transfer skills that were completely inapplicable to the civilian world into something that was very sought after in the civilian world, it was an interesting career choice that had nothing to do with a day-to-day thing. Hollywood's a weird group, this fantasy world that people get into. And I would have never wanted to be anywhere near it. And happenchance and karma took over.

EMILY BIGHAM: Sorry, I don't mean to jump in there, but I did want to ask you about this idea that the veterans are speaking a different language than the business leaders who might hire them. And I have a stat here that says, like 2/3 of veterans feel that way. And after talking to you, it sounds like that's maybe not the case. That there are a lot of transferable skills that veterans don't even know they have. Do you have any tips maybe for resume building or what veterans should be looking for for jobs?

JOHN BARTON: Absolutely. I think that you should have an open mind and I think you should look at your military experience, not just the specifics, like your MOS and the schools you've been to, but look at it as a broad package of managerial skills and troop leading skills that transition into leadership skills outside in the civilian world. And that's always your first step.

In the military, we're trained leaders. So the civilian world, and especially in lower, middle, and upper management, they're looking for trained leaders more than anything else. They want people that can hit the ground running and grab people, people gravitate to them. And they're effective in their communication and their discipline in terms of how that relates to the bottom line for any particular company. And this is outside of whether or not vets want to go into business for themselves.

So I think when I started working with vets with their resumes, when I started getting into mentorship, the hard part was saying, OK, look this is you on paper and this is great. Because we're taught in the Marine Corps to go through our resume building as if we were taking all of our skills and applying them directly into a civilian resume make for job sets. And that's fine and some of that does translate over. And some of that does translate over into if you want to pursue a higher level degree.

Some of our classes and schools do translate into college credits and that can be translated into a degree in certain aspects and certain colleges agree with that.

EMILY BIGHAM: So you mentioned--

JOHN BARTON: Oh, go ahead, yes.

EMILY BIGHAM: I'm so sorry. I just had an idea that I really wanted to touch on. So you mentioned the fact that a lot of businesses are looking for trained leaders and that's a quality that the military leaders who are transitioning have. I wonder if that's maybe something having to do, and I don't want to say confidence, because I don't think it's confidence.

I think it's maybe that that veterans need to understand the connection between the trained leaders that they are in the military and how that relates over to the trained leaders in the business world. Because I think that there's a lot of things there that are similar, but it's difficult to understand if you've never been in a corporate setting. So do you encounter that ever? And how would you coach through that?

JOHN BARTON: I do. I think what I found it the most interesting is that, oddly enough, a lot of veterans coming off active duty or reserve duty that come into the corporate world, their first notion is to be, not meek, but they tend to hide behind some of their more robust communication skills.

I've been in conference calls and meetings where veterans were present and I never knew, because they were sitting and watching the room and anticipating and picking their targets and picking their battles to fight. And that's definitely a skill we're taught. But I think that more vets should embrace this idea that they were trained communicators when they wore a uniform. They're trained in their abilities to communicate succinctly, think, and digest problems accurately and come up with good solutions.

And if you never communicate that in the corporate world, if you sit there and say, well, no one wants to hear from me. I'm just a vet. I never went to business school or I never did-- that's doing do it yourself a disservice. And yes, there is a language barrier. The corporate side, they can talk differently. But our world, as you translate in, it's not as hard as mixing oil and water. I believe it's like mixing two different colors of water. And what you come up with is a hybrid.

And so as a veteran, look back to your basics, look back to your communication and your attention to detail. And then develop your style, your leadership style that you may have already had when you were in, or maybe it's a hybrid style that you're adapting to the corporate world. Now, of course, there are things you don't want to do. We've got to keep our swearing down to a minimum. And I think we need to tone down any of our more robust rhetoric. But in the end, the skills that you learned, even going so far back as boot camp, are very applicable being a corporate leader.

EMILY BIGHAM: So I'm reading your bio here, which is great by the way. It's very long, you've done a lot of things. Congratulations.

JOHN BARTON: That's a blessing and a curse.

EMILY BIGHAM: There's a part, [LAUGHING] So there is a part here that says that you encourage out-of-the-box Marine Corps-style leadership principles. I'm so curious to hear about some of these out-of-the-box leadership principles.

JOHN BARTON: Well, years ago I had someone referred to members of the Marine Corps, we're just the civilians multitool, we're the civilians Leatherman. So there's so many different tools within our quiver that can be directly applied to how we work in the corporate world, but also how we become veteran entrepreneurs. And I spent a lot of time and lessons learned of what we call the asymmetric warfare school and division schools.

And we talk about, well, if you have a hammer and in an ice cube, well, you can easily beat the ice cube into submission. Or there are different ways to let it melt and there's different ways to utilize what it produces. And it's no different than if you're faced with some problem in the corporate setting. A veteran has to look at it and think, well, the easiest outcome might not be the best. The easiest solution might simply be the hardest to communicate through in the civilian world.

But I'm just trying to think of an analogy where we used our guerrilla warfare tactics in a civilian application. But there aren't any good ones. But there was a saying that I heard at boot camp. And granted, I was at boot camp about 20 years ago. It was improvise, adapt, and overcome. And in essence, that's what asymmetric and counter-guerrilla warfare is. And so, I think vets can use their out-of-the-box thinking more in the civilian world to create different types of hybrid results than they ever could in the military.

In the military, our background is still housed in a foundation of discipline and specifics to our branch and MOS. Well, you can think in terms of-- you don't have to think in your MOS or you don't have to think in those specific structured terms when you're out in the corporate world. You have access to Google. There are many times in the field when I was setting up booby traps and doing cool stuff, where I had no access to Google and if I had, there were all kinds of really cool things I could have learned that they didn't teach in our regimented school system.

EMILY BIGHAM: Kind of sounds like a process. So it's the process at which you problem solve. And can you repeat those three words one more time?

JOHN BARTON: Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

EMILY BIGHAM: I love that, that's great. That sounds like--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

JOHN BARTON: Oh, go ahead.

EMILY BIGHAM: No, I was going to say that it sounds like for any veterans that want to start a business, I know that's definitely a popular career move for veterans. That would solve a lot of problems.

JOHN BARTON: Yeah, beyond a doubt. Again, it goes back to this multitool concept. Where you can be-- the military teaches you to just mission accomplishment. And there are so many different methods to do this. And to complete the mission objective we're armed with training. So it was another expression we learned when I was going through our martial arts training program, which was one mind and weapon.

And so you can apply that to just anything you do as an entrepreneur. So if you have the head knowledge, if you can become a duty expert in what it is you want to accomplish, what the next amazing great thing you want to bring to the world is, and you just look at it like so how do I head think my way through this? And that's singly the most important tool that you have is your ability to think through the issue.

EMILY BIGHAM: And improvise.

JOHN BARTON: Adapt and overcome.

EMILY BIGHAM: I love that. So switching gears a little bit, I want to talk about resumes and how veterans can tailor their resumes to civilian positions to make their military experience applicable to a more corporate job. This is something that you mentioned in a military personnel office that's applicable to human resources. I don't even know if that maybe sometimes the terminology or the jargon used in the corporate world even registers if you haven't been in it.

JOHN BARTON: I don't think it does either. So as I said about a decade ago when I was first transitioning out, there were so few resources for veterans. And now especially with the tools that the Navy Federal offers and the SBA offers, there's certainly more elements out there that can help guide and let veteran entrepreneurs prosper. Which did not exist a decade ago. And was much more difficult.

But the resume is tricky. So outside of the entrepreneurial side of the fence, if you want to do something amazing in the work environment, there are tons of opportunities. And so I'm going to draw back to my original story, which I talked about my friend who was the captain and he was the XO of 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines. Well, he now has a Master's degree in marketing, which he did his entire education on Camp Pendleton, while he was on active duty. And he applied everything that he was learning and training into a civilian mindset, a corporate mindset as he was going through these online schools. And I think he did some in-course classes, but mainly it was online as he completed his degree.

So he started learning the civilian terminology and adapting it to his resume early on. He took things like, of course, I've done the same thing. When I went to NCO school, that's just an upper management certification course. So he looked at that and he said, well, I've done this training block as an officer, I've done this training block as an enlisted Marine, and I've done this training block, and those translate into the corporate designations of these. And so he used any advanced school he went to, any leadership school he went to, and plugged it into the corporate side of the fence.

Now, it's funny because he's been telling me that a lot of the corporate side, because so many veterans have gone into the corporate workforce that they're actually changing terminology to reflect more the attitude of the incoming service member. And so it's easier for that side to go, OK, well, this person went to Non-Commissioned Officers course, so we don't have to send them to a basic managerial position. They've already got the managerial leadership skills in tact from the government. So we could just send them to something on our side that teaches them the basics of how we work.

EMILY BIGHAM: What about the job environment? So we've talked a lot about the skills and how those are transferable, but is the job environment ever difficult?

JOHN BARTON: Oh, it can be. I think now it's more difficult than I've ever seen it. It was pretty tough around 2009, '10. Right at the height of the recession. I think there was a lot of people just being very discouraged. Nobody was hiring. If you were an entrepreneur trying to get out there and get your product or service out there, nobody was funding. That was tough.

I think it's really tough now, because even what's happened currently, if the banks are funding, if the credit lines are liquidable, and you're able to get out there and let's say you want to start the next big company. We're still limited by social distancing. I live in Los Angeles, we just had a whole new series of stay at home orders put in effect. So this pandemic is really tricky for us.

Outside of that, in times when things are a little bit more successful and the economy's on an upturn, which I believe we're going to see here real soon, it's a dog-eat-dog world where the competition is really intense. And so you have to navigate your way through a competitive corporate environment much more so than now. So yeah, I think that there's definitely some give and take. The environment, the work, what's happening in the world, politics, they all interfere with how vets are getting out into the workforce.

EMILY BIGHAM: Are you seeing any-- I know that you have a couple of businesses, and you also speak at various schools, and you have other programs that you're involved in. Have you seen anything, I guess, in your businesses related to COVID that have made you have to alter the way that you are operating? And how you've overcome that using a tactic from the military.

JOHN BARTON: Oh yeah, yeah. We've had to refocus everything that we're doing, especially on the film side. So I do more consulting work and service work in the film business. There has been nothing. We've only just started going back to productions as of a couple of months ago, and even then it's at about 20% or 30% of where it was just a year ago.

I just finished a project out in the New York area and the direct impact is how we interact with each other on a set. Now, many people have not been to a movie set, some people have. Those that have know that there could be anywhere between 200 and 600 people on a set at any given time or in various locations throughout a movie crew. So it's a huge grouping of people and that's well outside of your director and your principal cast.

Well, I deal directly with directors and cast members. I do a lot of production work behind the scenes, but mainly I'm up there in front trying to make sure everyone looks great. Well, there's new rules in place where I can't even go up and adjust an an actor's weapon in a sling, I can't go up and adjust a uniform, there's nothing I can do with that actor without going through a series of COVID protocols to get to hands-on. And they even discourage it even if we go through those protocols.

Every day we have to go through a questionnaire, a COVID written test. At the end of business we have to document whether or not we felt ill or we're getting headaches or anything like that. And take those hundreds of people and they're all put under a microscope daily and we have a check and balance that goes into making sure that, A, that we're not getting sick, but in particular with our actors on set.

If you have a $25, $30 million actor and you give him COVID, or her COVID, be ready for the lawsuit that's going to come. So I understand there's definitely protocols in place for what we do and how we do it now. Part of that's directly affecting creativity. The film side of this is a creative business at the end, so people have to work creatively with each other to come up with something cool.

For me, I do a lot more stuff on-set. We did this job in New York. I would have to talk to the actor via our phones in between takes. So he'd have his phone in his pocket, I'd have my phone, and we would talk and I'd say, look, adjust your thing to look like this. And I'd have one of my staff dressed up in an identical suit, whatever he was wearing, to make sure that he could make the adjustments. All right, I need you to walk like this. And I'd have my staff member walk like this and then the actor would emulate. And it was tricky, we've never had to do that before.

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah, that is tricky. And that's another way that you can use that skill of adapting that you said you learned in the military. And I think that's something--

JOHN BARTON: --Right back to adapting.

EMILY BIGHAM: I've experienced that here at Navy Federal. I really miss the in-person and being creative and coming up with solutions or problem-solving. Problem-solving through what kind of relief we're going to give members for COVID. That's not as easy to do when you have to call someone or set up a meeting, just it's easier to do when you're with people. That's when the real creativity and you just kind of start to get on a groove.

JOHN BARTON: Oh, you hit the nail on the head. The individual veteran on their own is powerful, but when vet get in groups that actually can hybridize and brainstorm, that's really when true power comes out. It's true across the board with everyone that shares a creative vision, of course. But I work with groups of veterans and I'm not just out here on my own doing my own thing. I work with a great, amazing support staff. I have people and networks all over the place.

And when I run into a situation I have people I can call, and I can work through problems and talk about things. It's interesting how much we rely, even as veterans, on that face-to-face, interpersonal connectivity. And to watch COVID erase all that. It's unfortunate.

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah, well, erase it, but maybe you just find another way to get the job done.

JOHN BARTON: For sure. Again, it goes back to mission accomplishment. Yes, that is our primary goal. Can you be as effective in the COVID times? Yeah, I think you can get close. But I think we're all looking forward to those days we go back to work and we can actually shake a hand and then create those interpersonal bonds that make everything that much better. I think that we're an amazing species and we just work better together.

EMILY BIGHAM: Right. Well, part of me thinks that if now more than ever, veterans are more well equipped to handle the stresses in the job market that a lot of people, they haven't had these types of hardships enter their lives. And maybe the veterans can help the civilians that are in the workforce to overcome it.

JOHN BARTON: Well, look, case in point. I know we're probably crunched for time. But I witnessed numerous instances of veterans helping people with the COVID protocols. Especially on donning and doffing equipment, like masks and gloves. I can remember going through every level of mock training you could think of. And so, especially if you just boil it down to a boot camp scenario where everyone goes into the gas chamber.

At some point you've been tear gassed. You know how to put a gas mask on, you know how to take a gas mask off, you know how to put gloves on, you know how to take gloves off. I watched all these vets, I don't even know what MOSs they all had, but they all knew how to take gloves on and off really well.

And so they going around each crew member and helping them, because a lot of civilians on a movie set or in any corporate environment, I guess, haven't had to work an entire 12 or 14-hour period with gloves interfering with their day-to-day. And yet in the military, that's just a common thing. So it's interesting to see that level of group help that was taking place with these 60, 80 people learning that, oh wait, you can't take gloves off like this? I didn't know that. So I thought that was pretty spectacular.

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah, even the small things like that. So we are a little bit crunched for time, well not crunched for time, because I can talk all day about this.

[LAUGHING]

EMILY BIGHAM: But give me a cut off time.

JOHN BARTON: Yes, yes, I'm sorry.

EMILY BIGHAM: Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that you want to get out to the veterans who are transitioning into civilian jobs?

JOHN BARTON: I would say, like we had said earlier, there's many paths through the forest. So whether you decide, as a veteran, that you want to be the next big tech mogul or you want to just be an amazing upper manager at McDonald's, all of this is great. And it depends on where you want to take yourself. Because not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur. It's tough, there's a lot of risk, the chances of going broke are pretty much 90% certainty in certain instances.

So there's all these different levels of why you should do something and why you shouldn't. So I say, look, follow your passion. You're passionate about going into business for yourself, then you need to become an amazing duty expert and what you want to do and how you want to do it and learn from other veterans that are doing it. I always make my door open to people for mentorship, because I believe that I've learned some interesting, valuable, costly lessons in my life, and I'm happy to share the pitfalls of that journey. It's funny--

EMILY BIGHAM: And successes.

JOHN BARTON: Successes are a great. Successes are great. But you have to-- the successes are easy to navigate. Everyone's happy. You're making money, everyone's having a great time. How do you navigate the failures and the pitfalls, especially in today's COVID times, can really determine the ethical path you take as a business owner and even as an employee. And it can guide your future prosperity.

There are great ways to navigate speed bumps and there are really crappy ones. So I think that veterans can learn from each other in how we navigate our way down that bumpy road. Because, honestly, these days, at least for the interim, we're going to be down some bumpy roads.

EMILY BIGHAM: Yeah. Who knows, who knows what's going to get thrown at us next.

JOHN BARTON: Yeah, for sure. We've already had pestilence and floods, we've had record hurricanes this year. What's next? What's [INAUDIBLE].

EMILY BIGHAM: I think on the East coast we're due for big snowstorms.

JOHN BARTON: Oh yeah, that's coming. I just saw it on the news, you'll get that tonight.

EMILY BIGHAM: No I'm not prepared. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you so much for joining the podcast today and it would be great to talk to you again about specifically entrepreneurs or veteran-owned businesses. I think that would be a really good topic to really get into, especially the experience that you've had.

JOHN BARTON: Yeah, it's my pleasure. There's some real heavy meat and potatoes in a good veteran entrepreneur talk.

EMILY BIGHAM: Yes, and some good beer I heard too.

[LAUGHING]

JOHN BARTON: Yes, our beer is quite good. People do like it.

EMILY BIGHAM: Gets the job done.

JOHN BARTON: COVID has really put a damper on our beer-making, let me tell you. But we are looking forward to 2021 for sure. A little bit, we're going to-- again, we have to improvise and adapt and overcome the crisis. So we're rebranding a little bit. But we're going to have beer for the masses here pretty soon, once again.

EMILY BIGHAM: Very exciting. I'll have to make a trip up from Coronado next time I'm down.

JOHN BARTON: You're always welcome, always welcome.

EMILY BIGHAM: If I make it through this blizzard that's coming tonight. I'm just kidding. So where can listeners find you?

JOHN BARTON: Well, you can go to our main corporate portal, which is thewarfightergroup.com. Of if you're interested in just our beer, you can go to the Warfighter Brewing Company and we can answer your questions there.

EMILY BIGHAM: And for resources for veterans?

JOHN BARTON: They can always call me direct.

[LAUGHING]

EMILY BIGHAM: They have to come buy beer.

JOHN BARTON: Well, I tell you those conversations are best had over a pint. So any time, they can reach out to me at any of our email addresses. Anyone that needs help with any questions they have in regards to work or entrepreneurship, please don't hesitate to reach out to me. My numbers are public, my emails are public, and I'm happy to answer any questions.

EMILY BIGHAM: All right, well, thank you, John, so much for being on the podcast. And for those of you who are listening-- and hopefully we'll talk soon. And for those of you who are listening, make sure you subscribe to Making Cents wherever you get your podcasts. And give us a rating, drop a comment, or email us that makingcents@navyfederal.org. That's M-A-K-I-N-G-C-E-N-T-S @ navyfederal.org. Where we're making your financial health our mission. Take care, John.

JOHN BARTON: Thanks a lot, you too.

ANNOUNCER: Navy Federal Credit Union is federally insured by the National Credit Union Administration. This podcast is intended to provide general information and shouldn't be considered legal, tax, or financial advice. It's always a good idea to consult a tax or financial professional for specific information on how certain laws may apply to your individual financial situation. References to and participation with the military community does not constitute organizational endorsement. Navy Federal is an equal housing lender. Navy Federal Credit Union, our members are the mission.

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